@censorshipsucks06 said:

[@FormerlyKnownAs]

Another Fallout in the wake of all this “inappropriate” behaviorness:

The Annual Office Holiday Party

It seems that many companies are choosing NOT to have a party this year.

Also, some companies that are still having parties have instituted a few changes (probably others changes as well)--but, you get the idea:

-- No mistletoe.

--No open bar.

--Doing away with alcoholic drinks.

--Where they do serve alcoholic drinks, issuing tickets limiting guests to two each.

---

I consider this a two-edge sword:

PLUS: Hopefully it will keep SOME idiots from acting like even bigger idiots.

MINUS: Will put a deep-hole in the economic pockets of businesses and regular folks who depend on that yearly holiday-trade boost.

I'm glad I'm essentially done with companies. Doing away with the Christmas Parties is just another example of how silly this nation is becoming. No open bar, or doing away with alcoholic drinks altogether? Why? Because someone MIGHT do something? Why don't we close down all offices and work from home? That way nobody is ever in a position to touch another human.

There needs to be some degrees put on this hysteria. This nation has a real problem. And that is, whenever something makes it's way into the mainstream media - the nation goes berserk and over-reacts to everything. And what that does is dilutes real instances of harassment.
I read an article where some woman wrote "Finally - we are at the time and place in society where grouping, harassing, and** asking women out **at work is no longer tolerated!".

WAIT - Now men can't ask women OUT that they work with? This is out of control. I'd have never married my wife - who I met at work. Seriously - there's going to be a lot less people getting laid if they aren't allowed to date co-workers. I wrote back to this lunatic that asking someone out on a date that you work with is NOT harassment. And no, I don't give a damn if that person is an equal or a subordinate. You can ask someone out. If there is continual pressure, or negative repercussions because the answer was no, THEN there's a problem. But the answer isn't to expect the workplace to become a Monk/Nun Den.

I pity the next generation that has to have llamas and ponies brought into their college safe spaces to get them through the anxiety of final exam week. Or the office where nobody is allowed to ask anyone out. Or the office where there's no social parties because of what someone MIGHT do.

I'm not advocating a return to a 1950's American where offices were like Mad Men. But come on - from college campuses to work places, this country is slowly going nuts.

I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

@CalabrianQueen said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

[@FormerlyKnownAs]

Another Fallout in the wake of all this “inappropriate” behaviorness:

The Annual Office Holiday Party

It seems that many companies are choosing NOT to have a party this year.

Also, some companies that are still having parties have instituted a few changes (probably others changes as well)--but, you get the idea:

-- No mistletoe.

--No open bar.

--Doing away with alcoholic drinks.

--Where they do serve alcoholic drinks, issuing tickets limiting guests to two each.

---

I consider this a two-edge sword:

PLUS: Hopefully it will keep SOME idiots from acting like even bigger idiots.

MINUS: Will put a deep-hole in the economic pockets of businesses and regular folks who depend on that yearly holiday-trade boost.

I'm glad I'm essentially done with companies. Doing away with the Christmas Parties is just another example of how silly this nation is becoming. No open bar, or doing away with alcoholic drinks altogether? Why? Because someone MIGHT do something? Why don't we close down all offices and work from home? That way nobody is ever in a position to touch another human.

There needs to be some degrees put on this hysteria. This nation has a real problem. And that is, whenever something makes it's way into the mainstream media - the nation goes berserk and over-reacts to everything. And what that does is dilutes real instances of harassment.
I read an article where some woman wrote "Finally - we are at the time and place in society where grouping, harassing, and** asking women out **at work is no longer tolerated!".

WAIT - Now men can't ask women OUT that they work with? This is out of control. I'd have never married my wife - who I met at work. Seriously - there's going to be a lot less people getting laid if they aren't allowed to date co-workers. I wrote back to this lunatic that asking someone out on a date that you work with is NOT harassment. And no, I don't give a damn if that person is an equal or a subordinate. You can ask someone out. If there is continual pressure, or negative repercussions because the answer was no, THEN there's a problem. But the answer isn't to expect the workplace to become a Monk/Nun Den.

I pity the next generation that has to have llamas and ponies brought into their college safe spaces to get them through the anxiety of final exam week. Or the office where nobody is allowed to ask anyone out. Or the office where there's no social parties because of what someone MIGHT do.

I'm not advocating a return to a 1950's American where offices were like Mad Men. But come on - from college campuses to work places, this country is slowly going nuts.

I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

The answer isn't to ban office relationships. What you do then is make it a clandestine activity that may result in not only the relationship going south, but people losing their jobs. Relationships are tricky things without having office managers acting like big brothers. The issues this kind of rule create don't outweigh the problems it claims, but doesn't, solve.

@CalabrianQueen said: I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest. You are with them most of the week and can get to know them. Of course, there are pitfalls, but when people are exposed to each other on a regular basis, crap's gonna happen. It's human nature.

@Gothish520 said:

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest.

It was, and perhaps arguably still should be. But these days when one of the people could get the other fired maybe just by bringing it up, it seems like a rather foolish risk.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Seems like the only way to find out if you can "safely" ask someone out, is to ask them if you could ask them out. But what if they find THAT offensive/threatening/whatever?

May have to go back to the "old ways" and use a go-between.

That is; have Person A's representative ask Person B's representative to ask Person B if it's OK--AND then have both Reps come along as chaperones.

I sure wouldn't want to be a "representative" these days. It sounds like a way for 2 or 3 people to lose their jobs instead of just one.

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said: I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest. You are with them most of the week and can get to know them. Of course, there are pitfalls, but when people are exposed to each other on a regular basis, crap's gonna happen. It's human nature.

Exactly. Work and school are the most prevalent places where people meet their mates. Banning those relationships at work puts that idiot office manager in charge of office romance when it's none of his business. Do office/work romances cause some problems? Absolutely. But here in the 21st Century, the new fad is that anything that presents a problem or discomfort needs to be eliminated instead of working through it. I don't like the term 'slippery slope', mainly because life is lived on a slippery slope. But for people that think you can 'ban' problems and that things will be better just because they have been 'banned' are begging to be disappointed.

Erica - this isn't aimed at you - but more at the woman who wrote the article where she celebrated the 'end of workplace romance'.

My wife and I met at a place where workplace romance WAS banned within certain departments. We kept it under wraps until I moved to another area within the company. It didn't stop us (and at the time my wife was my superior). Next year will be our 25th Anniversary. Interesting thing was, that DESPITE the 'ban', romance ran rampant. Like in all places, some were good, some were bad, some had drama, others didn't. It's called life. Wherever you put a group of males and females (and sometimes you don't even need opposites to attract), there's gonna be romance. Trying to stop that from happening is futile. In fact, from my experience, it causes MORE sexual interactions because there's the sense of 'adventure' in engaging in 'forbidden fruit'.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said: I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest. You are with them most of the week and can get to know them. Of course, there are pitfalls, but when people are exposed to each other on a regular basis, crap's gonna happen. It's human nature.

Exactly. Work and school are the most prevalent places where people meet their mates. Banning those relationships at work puts that idiot office manager in charge of office romance when it's none of his business. Do office/work romances cause some problems? Absolutely. But here in the 21st Century, the new fad is that anything that presents a problem or discomfort needs to be eliminated instead of working through it. I don't like the term 'slippery slope', mainly because life is lived on a slippery slope. But for people that think you can 'ban' problems and that things will be better just because they have been 'banned' are begging to be disappointed.

Erica - this isn't aimed at you - but more at the woman who wrote the article where she celebrated the 'end of workplace romance'.

My wife and I met at a place where workplace romance WAS banned within certain departments. We kept it under wraps until I moved to another area within the company. It didn't stop us (and at the time my wife was my superior). Next year will be our 25th Anniversary. Interesting thing was, that DESPITE the 'ban', romance ran rampant. Like in all places, some were good, some were bad, some had drama, others didn't. It's called life. Wherever you put a group of males and females (and sometimes you don't even need opposites to attract), there's gonna be romance. Trying to stop that from happening is futile. In fact, from my experience, it causes MORE sexual interactions because there's the sense of 'adventure' in engaging in 'forbidden fruit'.

Agree 100%!

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said: I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest. You are with them most of the week and can get to know them. Of course, there are pitfalls, but when people are exposed to each other on a regular basis, crap's gonna happen. It's human nature.

Super late reply by me, but you're right, it's human nature.A lot of the time Proximity breeds romance, and certain jobs, especially office and retail, have a hook-up culture that we can't avoid.

I can't lie, I met a couple boyfriend's at old jobs, but good thing I didn't have to work with them after the breakup.

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said: I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest. You are with them most of the week and can get to know them. Of course, there are pitfalls, but when people are exposed to each other on a regular basis, crap's gonna happen. It's human nature.

Super late reply by me, but you're right, it's human nature.A lot of the time Proximity breeds romance, and certain jobs, especially office and retail, have a hook-up culture that we can't avoid.

I can't lie, I met a couple boyfriend's at old jobs, but good thing I didn't have to work with them after the breakup.

I did have to work with one, and it is true that it was NOT fun. Got through it and we did become friends, but lordy it was a rough few months until we both got past it.

Me too Gothish. I've been in five major relationships (the 5th being my wife). Four of them I met at work, and one at school. Like most, I had many shorter flings. Most from either, you guessed it, work or school. I see you wrote that you got through it. As did I. That's called growing up. It's not easy, but I really don't think we do ourselves any favors as a culture by trying to eliminate anything that is tough to get through.

Now, if there's actual harassment going on, clearly that isn't something that should be allowed. But some of the things I'm seeing on college campuses - safe spaces and attempts to ban anything that makes anyone 'uncomfortable' is now beginning to find it's way into the work place. And certain people will take a true issue - assault and/or harassment, and conflate it with men and women simply engaging in dating or other activities that have gone on since the dawn of time.

This is why now, more than ever, clear cut guidelines need to be drawn. What Harvey Weinstein did is not the same as someone asking out a woman at the office. And I'm seeing exactly that kind of blurred outlook in print and in other media. I can only imagine what it's like in the corporate world now. I can say I'm glad I'm done with that. Both dating, and working in those kind of atmospheres. I truly feel bad for younger people just starting out in what is becoming a mighty f'd up culture. For every step we take forward, it seems we take an equal step back.

I've walked this culture for many decades. And things are so volatile right now, it's just amazing.

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said: I think dating co-workers is a really risky practice and all-around bad idea especially in the current social climate.

There's a lot of excitement that comes from having an office fling but the results once it goes sour are not worth the risk.I've watched it happen to my friends too many times.

I think the issue is that most office relationships are just People looking to hook up and not get attached, but then when feelings get hurt there's collateral damage to the work itself, which shouldn't be subjected to petty differences.

Then you have situations where employees are hooking up with bosses, that's where integrity and professionalism start leaking like a sieve. .

I met my husband and a couple of exes at work. You wouldn't believe the people that got together at my old job, from flings and affairs to long-term marriages. That place was a hotbed of workplace relationships, lol. There were no company policies forbidding it, though they would prefer that couples not be supervisor/subordinate in the same department. Otherwise it was a free-for-all. Honestly, I think the workplace is the one of the best and easiest places to meet a potential love interest. You are with them most of the week and can get to know them. Of course, there are pitfalls, but when people are exposed to each other on a regular basis, crap's gonna happen. It's human nature.

Super late reply by me, but you're right, it's human nature.A lot of the time Proximity breeds romance, and certain jobs, especially office and retail, have a hook-up culture that we can't avoid.

I can't lie, I met a couple boyfriend's at old jobs, but good thing I didn't have to work with them after the breakup.

I did have to work with one, and it is true that it was NOT fun. Got through it and we did become friends, but lordy it was a rough few months until we both got past it.

When I used to work in a department store the manager was in a relationship with one my friends who worked for him.

I felt bad for her because the other women knew what was going on and did nothing but bad mouth her. I avoided the topic altogether because if I told her how I felt about it would hurt her.

Turns out he was a garden- variety man whore and she certainlyrtainly wasn't the only one working there that he was sleeping with.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Me too Gothish. I've been in five major relationships (the 5th being my wife). Four of them I met at work, and one at school. Like most, I had many shorter flings. Most from either, you guessed it, work or school. I see you wrote that you got through it. As did I. That's called growing up. It's not easy, but I really don't think we do ourselves any favors as a culture by trying to eliminate anything that is tough to get through.

Now, if there's actual harassment going on, clearly that isn't something that should be allowed. But some of the things I'm seeing on college campuses - safe spaces and attempts to ban anything that makes anyone 'uncomfortable' is now beginning to find it's way into the work place. And certain people will take a true issue - assault and/or harassment, and conflate it with men and women simply engaging in dating or other activities that have gone on since the dawn of time.

This is why now, more than ever, clear cut guidelines need to be drawn. What Harvey Weinstein did is not the same as someone asking out a woman at the office. And I'm seeing exactly that kind of blurred outlook in print and in other media. I can only imagine what it's like in the corporate world now. I can say I'm glad I'm done with that. Both dating, and working in those kind of atmospheres. I truly feel bad for younger people just starting out in what is becoming a mighty f'd up culture. For every step we take forward, it seems we take an equal step back.

I've walked this culture for many decades. And things are so volatile right now, it's just amazing.

Pretty much agree. I actually feel kind of sorry for Matt Damon - the guy just tried to say that patting someone's butt is not the same as rape or outright harassment, and he got lambasted. There ARE degrees. And trying to claim that someone leering or exposing themselves to you is just as bad as physical sexual assault just demeans what true victims of rape have gone through. I had a guy (a coworker's fiance) expose himself to me right on the selling floor at work. It shook me up a bit, but mostly it made me laugh at the ridiculousness of it. I didn't need counseling or a rape kit - I wasn't devastated. I did file a report with our security department (as did another girl that he did the same thing to) because what if I did nothing and a month from now he did worse to someone else? I felt I HAD to report him, because that kind of behavior is just not normal. And yes, the coworker did still marry him!

I've had other incidents of an inappropriate sexual nature with men over the years, from verbal sexual suggestions to a boob grab - all were offensive and creepy and should never happen to anyone. And should definitely not be tolerated. But again, there are degrees - someone telling a dirty joke at work is not the same as a boss telling you to put out or you won't get a promotion. I do think that if a joke makes someone uncomfortable, they should tell the person to stop - if they won't stop, then it is time to take the next step. But Dirty Joke guy is just a jerk - he's not exactly the same type of horrible person as Harvey Weinstein or Matt Lauer.

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashleigh's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.