Discuss The Last of Us
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The dumb of us
posted by D-magicSTAFFMOD on February 20, 2023 at 11:27 AM
I try to avoid judging new shows before significant part of the season is over, sometimes it's hard to know what direction the show may take eventually. So I will be a bit careful here, but after half a season I must admit this show is a disappointment. I never played the games and I don't know the full story and where it will go eventually. But so far, if I review only the show, I just don't think it's any good.
For start, Joel seems too dumb to survive so far. I mean, the show tries to picture him as some sort of experienced, seen-all tough guy, capable to handle all dangerous situations he can find himself in while roaming both outside and in the safe zone. Cynical and rough, he accepts the reality around him and tries to do his best to navigate it. On the paper it sounds very good and giving such person a mission to protect someone like Ellie can really show his other side and the depth of his character. But so far in the show he just makes dumb decisions constantly. I mean, if you drive in the car over post-apocalyptic land, knowing all the dangers that can wait you around the corner, and you see a blocked road under a bridge, clearly done intentionally, with lots of abandoned cars around it, it would be a dumb idea to drive right to that block and start inspecting it up close. Seriously. You need to stop far from it, approach it carefully while hiding and wait to see movement, or anything unusual until you decide it's safe to come close. And Joel just drives through all these cars right to it, like it's nothing. Not to mention that the initial intentions should be avoiding large cities in the first place. There are no other roads that go around the city? Come on. And then he just "ah, screw it. I'll just drive through unknown city like I am on parade".
And his dumb decisions just keep piling up after that. He is constantly finds himself in dangerous situations that he caused himself by not paying attention and not thinking logically. And then he has no way out of them, it's just blind luck that he is not getting killed. Ellie shots that guy that attacks him in the city and it's just too convenient. If Joel would give Ellie the gun before that and say to her to cover his back if he is attacked, and then she does exactly that, well that could've been part of his backup plan and a smart move. But he is not even aware she has a gun at that point, what was he hoping for when he was telling her to hide. That scene was just so dumb.
Ellie's character is also not written very well. All that snarky and reckless behavior is just so unnatural in the world of this show. You cannot survive in such place with that attitude. The chemistry between them is not bad, so we will see where it goes. The writing of the show is weak, the situations are too cliche for post-apocalyptic genre, the random characters we meet are superficial stereotypes. A man protecting his deaf brother, a woman that leads a rebellion of militant group, it's just so tiresome. Speaking of that Kathleen, that was huge miscast. There was nothing charismatic about her to be believable that she leads a rebellion and commands army of militants. And that forced cruelty is just too random, psychopathic. Seems like killing lots of people in the world that already lost most of its population seems like a huge waste of work force and genetical diversity, there is no planning ahead. And one she kills is a Doctor, ffs, you don't kill doctors in apocalypse. Really weak writing for the sake of showing something cruel and shocking without any logical reason behind to justify it. These people were trying to survive in a dangerous world, there should be no judging here.
Regarding the infected, the concept is nice, much more based on science than all kinds of walking dead that unclear how do they work. But, if it's based on science and the infected should be realistic, controlled by fungus, then it is not clear to me why was there this huge infected monster in episode 5 that comes out of the ground and all buffed up and behaves like he is some Nemesis from Resident Evil. Seems completely unrelated and inconsistent with the depiction of the source of the infection.
This show is full with such problems, even though the intentions are good. I don't know where the story goes and if it can improve, but as of now this show is disappointing and used only to pass some time in front of a TV.
Reply by movie_nazi
on February 27, 2023 at 7:54 PM
It seems he has anxiety problems as well. At first I thought they were trying to inject him having a heart problem but after that "I can't do it " talk with Tommy, he clearly has high anxiety and he was having mini panic attacks. No, he wasn't this damaged in the game. I think the writers just love to showcase issues that many people have but it somehow never makes it into our stories. The hero is usually infallible, perfect, and never ever misses a shot and certainly doesn't get panic attacks.
Reply by D-magic
on February 28, 2023 at 6:24 AM
I understand the intentions, not always audience wants to see perfect hero that can do no wrong and always wins. For that we have ridiculous Fast & Furious franchise. But, being so flawed is also too much. Tony Soprano is an anti hero with panic attacks and whole bunch of problems, but I would not call him incompetent in what he does. The good writing can craft flawed character that is plausible and interesting to watch and follow. We had few great first seasons of The Walking Dead to prove that in that specific genre. That show was able to reflect the danger and the mistrust of other survivors in really good way, until the show broke down and I stopped watching it.
Here, Joel is just not an interesting character as he is written, I don't see him showing his experience in competent way at all. And Ellie becomes really annoying and insufferable. Again, big problem with writing and actors. Hope they will improve.
Reply by movie_nazi
on February 28, 2023 at 2:11 PM
The Walking Dead. Man, I remember when I really liked that show and it turned to complete shit. It was, IMO, totally a victim of "we gotta squeeze this rock dry" and stretch out the story as faaaaaaar as we can. If it would have wrapped up in 7 or 8 season at the most it would have been a great show. Incidentally, I stoped watching at season 7. The writing just got so bad.
But back to Joel, yeah it seems in the game he was written much more cut and dry. He was a heartless smuggler who only looked out for himself who eventually bonds with Ellie in a father daughter relationship that he sorely missed. He didn't have panic attacks and he never made stupid mistakes. I mean, I guess you can say he's overly flawed in the show? I always thought he was a bit too good in the game. A dude in his 50s kicking everyone's ass like he is an ex navy seal when he is just a construction contractor. So I guess they wanted to flaw him up a bit to make him a bit more believable. Maybe they over did it.
Reply by Markoff
on March 16, 2023 at 3:48 PM
I'm almost finished with the show, it's not that bad, but I don't get the hype either, it doesn't really add anything over any decent zombie movie or heck it seems to me just like Jericho with bigger budget. But to your point about big monster which seemed very out of place, he still had realistic proportions to be done big steroid dude like The Rock or something plus he could be covered in fungus more than the others to make him look bulkier, but yeah, they should really not use it at all.
Reply by D-magic
on March 19, 2023 at 2:06 PM
The season ended and I haven't changed my mind. I did somewhat liked episode 8, it is the right kind of post-apocalyptic reality that I want to see in such shows. Unfortunately it didn't improve the general impression and the show is still suffered from weak writing. The last episode was extra ridiculous, with Joel suddenly transforming to seal team 6 after he was so easily ambushed before. They try to follow the game plot too much and can't think of a better solutions to the plot. It feels like the show is full of idiots, seriously.
For example, why would Marlene tell Joel anything before the operation is done? She knows him, just restrain him until all is done and decide what to do later. No, she tells him everything before and sends him unrestrained somewhere else. Why was he not in that place already? And even with what happened, she could've just say that Ellie agreed to the operation and knew the consequences. Would be enough for Joel to doubt his actions. And why would Joel lie to Ellie as if she would blame him for saving her life? Just say that they were planning to sacrifice her and cut her brain and he saved her. I think she would be more upset with Fireflies trying to kill her than Joel saving her. The show builds conflicts and relationships on stupidity, it makes no sense and it's super annoying. And yet another doctor gets killed. Someone tell these idiots that you don't kill doctors after apocalypse happens, ffs.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on March 20, 2023 at 6:26 AM
The Joel that Marlene knew had been completely changed by his trek with Ellie. Marlene knew him as a hardened survivor, but earlier in the episode it had been made clear that he has deliriously happy to have found a surrogate daughter.
Ellie had made it clear that she was prepared for any sacrifice to create a cure, so she was prepared to die. Joel, however, was not prepared to give up his "daughter".
The doctor was in the way of a man high on adrenaline. Plus his death is an important factor in events in Part 2.
Reply by D-magic
on March 20, 2023 at 8:08 AM
As I said, weak writing. These excuses to justify what happened are pathetic and forced out of nothing. She knew different Joel? Who cares and why does it even matter in the considerations of a military leader that is responsible for the most important action to find a cure and save humanity? You do not take risks and chances on account of some old acquaintance. You lock it up and you don't let anything to risk it, including putting Joel into a cage. At least she didn't invite him to watch the operation. This is not how it works for anyone that knows how to manage organizations and people. And Ellie didn't made it clear that she would sacrifice her life for this, there was no point in which she said that or that she would agree to die to save humanity. In last episode she said she does want to find that hospital to complete their journey with a result, but there was no mention of what she would agree to. That is actually quite the opposite of her character. She didn't know what Fireflies would do to her and they didn't tell her for a reason, so realizing that the operation would've killed her without her knowledge and direct agreement should have more impact than what Joel did. It's all very weak and forced. I don't know how doctor's death will be important factor in part 2, but I am sure it will be something stupid again.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on March 20, 2023 at 8:49 AM
You seem to forget that most of the Fireflies aren't military. They've had to take on that role against what they saw as an oppressive government.
"There's no halfway with this. We finish what we started," Ellie says when Joel tries to convince her to turn back. Look at her face; while she doesn't know continuing will result in her being cut open and dying, but she knows that it could result in the ultimate sacrifice and is will to make it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD7rS0JiMHQ
Reply by D-magic
on March 20, 2023 at 9:28 AM
So the look on actor's face is what should tell the whole story how she is ready to die? You are putting meaning where there isn't any. We finish what we started means to reach the hospital and let the scientists and doctors check why she is immune, not we find the doctors and I will donate my body to science so they can dissect my brain without my agreement. No chance she knew what will happen and no way she agreed to it while traveling with Joel, and no look on her face can say exactly that. If this is indeed what the show wanted to say to us, they would've done it in other way. But they didn't because they are crap writers, so instead everyone is guessing their intentions by a single sentence she said and a look on her face in this 5 seconds of dialog. Saying that by the look on her face she means that one very specific thing and that it is actually the consent to be killed is just ridiculous statement.
The writers are free to write any scene that would add more justification, for example they would've added a scene in which it is explained to Ellie that she would get operation on her brain and she may die. If she was told that directly and then she would go through a process of agreement and consent, saying goodbye to Joel and then he would do what he did - that would be completely different story, no? But they rushed her immediately to operation room, without warning they just put her under anesthetic and let's open her brain? Come on, that is just crap.
Fireflies are not a branch in military, there is no more US state or government as we know it. Seems like it's only city states now with their own rules. They are military in the sense that they are structured as military organization with soldiers and command. And they don't have to be, you just need to know how to think logically. Otherwise how did they even survive until now. They move potential hostile from one place to another under convoy of two soldiers with weapons, they clearly know he can be hostile. Yet, they don't tie his hands and don't put cover over his eyes, they just walk with him. You don't need to be in US military to know how stupid this is and take precautions.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on March 20, 2023 at 10:31 AM
Yet millions of viewers did have that takeaway from that scene and Ellie's previous actions.
https://youtu.be/APs8pOaPBUc?t=74
In the scene where the women and children arrive at Brünnlitz in "Schindler's List", you need dialogue to know what those in the office are feeling?
So they're like Schroedinger's Military? They exist in both states?
Reply by D-magic
on March 20, 2023 at 12:06 PM
For someone that can take a look at a face expression for the whole 2 seconds and without any doubt make a conclusion that this person is agreeing to be sacrificed and die, you seem not to understand simple words written in the commentary. Her decision is not what food to order that you can just simply conclude from some sentence and a look. Whatever you and "millions" of viewers, that of course you must know exactly what they understood because apparently you are an omnipotent being that can understand thoughts, took away from that scene is based on writers feeding it to you with a spoon what to think. And that's exactly what I mean, that the writing to justify crucial events in the show is based on stupid explanations, which seem perfectly logical to you. And when I am trying to explain why it is stupid you suddenly lose all ability to understand English. Maybe I need to send you a photo of a look on my face so you will understand what I mean?
The writing is weak and dumb and viewers like you just accept it as reality because you lack any critical thinking. How about you apply your parts of brain that refuse to understand what I write to the screenplay of the show instead?
As for the Schindler's List that you mentioned, that's just dumb example. You have the entire movie and the history outside the move to know exactly the context of what is happening. There is a huge volume of context that explains the situation, and you compare it to some short random scene in some dumb show? Not surprising, I am beginning to realize that you may not know the difference.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on March 20, 2023 at 12:38 PM
https://img.rasset.ie/000c3ee6-572.jpg
So you agree that the writers did explain it enough for people.
BTW, Ellie's willingness to sacrifice herself was precisely why Joel lied and why she asked about his story at the end. https://youtu.be/85fszS_YpN8?t=89
If you don't believe me that most people have the same take away: https://gprivate.com/6485u
Reply by D-magic
on March 20, 2023 at 1:00 PM
Maybe it's finally getting to you. No, I would not agree that they explained it "enough", for sure it was not enough. This is not how you explain it. This is why the writing is stupid, because the attempt for explanation is stupid. I don't understand why it would be "enough" for people to draw such conclusion from that explanation. That's the problem, they move the plot and explain motivations with stupid and forced situations that don't make any sense, that's not how people behave. Just because the writers intend to tell you what just happened and lead you to conclusions doesn't mean that it's plausible. But for some reason it's perfectly enough for you to understand it this way, and then you go and apply that weak logic on other things that happened, just inventing rationale by yourself even if it's based on stupidity. Not for me, that's just bad writing.
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on March 20, 2023 at 1:08 PM
So the writers didn't "spoon feed" me and everyone else that thought the same?
Maybe Josh Groban can best explain about life and movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U7k7aPKue0
Reply by Philippe LeMarchand
on March 20, 2023 at 1:15 PM
Not got time to quote all relevant bits, but on Communism/Socialism/Marxism, I don't think there has ever been a state that has actually been any of those things. Plenty that said they were, but they've all been dictatorships. Even Adolf Hitler led the "National Socialist German Workers' Party" which I can't see anyone agreeing was actually Socialist.
On Capitalism being the best way to improve healthcare, I completely disagree. Just from your example, what about all the people who are working such long hours that they don't have time to exercise or cook decent food? Because it's the only way they can survive in a Capitalist system. Many nurses here in the UK are overweight for those reasons. Or those people from areas that are under-provided for and who never got the education to do so? Or those who fall for all the advertising? What about those injured because the NRA are more interested in preserving profits that lives? Thos poisoned by companies who have decided to cut costs?
You've also failed to mention that the US system merely issues a token fine to a drug company that has released a dangerous drug. What about the Opioid crisis? Both symptoms of a system where making money is more important than saving lives.